Zero Ukuleles to Three Ukuleles with Jen Kwok

What if midlife isn’t about reinventing yourself? What if it’s about finally becoming the person you were all along?

In this episode, I sit down with writer, musician, actor, comedian, and multi-hyphenate Jen Kwok to talk about creativity, caregiving, intuition, visibility, and the strange process of reclaiming the parts of ourselves we were taught to tone down. We explore why sensitivity might actually be a superpower, how to hold the mundane and the magical at the same time, and why adulthood often feels like an endless stream of administrative tasks interrupting your actual life.

Plus: energetic hygiene, neurodivergence, comedy as survival, and a wonderfully weird story involving three ukuleles, a keytar, and what may be the universe’s most specific form of communication.

Jen's website here.    

Leave your message for the Speaker Box here.

Watch this episode on YouTube here.  

For more AGECRAFT content, join the Substack here. 

To work with Julia and/or learn more about her, go here.  

CBDMD website here.

Use code julia_g_wellness to get 15% off 

Episode Sponsor

Be one of the helpers! SUBSCRIBE to this podcast on APPLE PODCASTS or SPOTIFY and leave us a review on APPLE PODCASTS. 

Transcript

Julia 1:16

Before we begin this episode, a quick confession. Agecraft After Dark is produced entirely by me. I book the guests, write the questions, record the interviews, edit the audio, write the show notes, upload the episodes, because, you know, apparently I looked at a perfectly unreasonable amount of work and thought, what if I did it all myself? So if you enjoy what you're hearing, please subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with a friend. It helps more people find the podcast, keeps this little labor of love growing, and reassures me that I'm not spending my evenings talking into the digital equivalent of an abandoned lighthouse. Oh, thank you for listening. Now let's

Intro

Julia 1:56

get into it. Are you haunted by the thoughts that show up at 3 a.m.? Good. This is where we follow them. Where science meets ritual, humor meets reckoning, and aging and identity are viewed as evolution. And is where we ask the only question that matters.

Opening Monologue

Julia 2:52

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen, Theys & Thems. Welcome to the show. Lately, I've been thinking about the strange little clues we leave ourselves across a lifetime. The outfits we insisted on wearing as kids, the hobbies we were weirdly intense about, the songs we made up, the performances we forced our families to sit through, and the tiny obsessions that maybe weren't so random after all. Personally, I think about the photo of me in my little get-in-shape girl outfit, fully committed to the bit, like a seven-year-old Jane Fonda with no mortgage and better knees. And at the time, did I know I would end up teaching Pilates, talking about bodies, aging, identity, and transformation for a living? Absolutely not! I probably thought I was just accessorizing with wristbands. But sometimes I wonder if we are born with the blueprint already in us. Today's guest, my friend Jen Kwok, and I talk about that very thing: creativity, sensitivity, caregiving, comedy, intuition, and the parts of ourselves we were told to tone down, grow out of, or make more convenient for other people. But before we get into the interview, let's see who's come through the speaker box.

Speaker Box

Julia 4:04 SpeakPipe 4:04

Knock, knock, anybody home.

Jennifer S. 4:08

Hey Julia. Being 53, jobless, and reinventing myself strikes me with terror, but also excitement. I think the thing that keeps me up at night is thinking about retirement. I don't know how much longer I want to work or have to work. I dream of having a retirement that is surrounded by chosen family and giving me the ability to travel. But working in nonprofit most of my life has not really amassed that great of a retirement. And that is keeping me up at night. Thank you for agecraft. Looking forward to more.

Julia 4:55

Jenna. First of all, congratulations on achieving the Gen X dream. Realizing retirement is somehow both 10 years away and five minutes away. I hear you. Reinvention at 53 is equal parts terror, excitement, and staring at your retirement account like, oh fuck. But I love what you said about chosen family and travel because that's the part we don't talk about enough. Retirement isn't just a financial plan, it's an identity plan. It's asking, who am I when I'm not producing, performing, or answering emails? And while it's true that Vanguard won't let you deposit good deeds into your retirement account, I have a feeling all those years spent building community and showing up for people aren't worthless assets. If your vision of retirement is being surrounded by chosen family, my guess is you've been making deposits into that account for decades. And those are probably the people least likely to let you end up living under a bridge. Thank you for sharing what's been keeping you up at night, and thank you for listening. I'm rooting for your next chapter. And now, let's get into the show. Jen Quok is a writer, musician, actor, comedian, nonprofit leader, mom, dog mom, and composer for Sesame Street, Peloton, and Vox Media because apparently some people are out here using all of their gifts while the rest of us are still searching every room for our reading glasses, which happen to be resting on our heads. Now this conversation is not only about identity and evolution, but it's about remembering. Remembering the person who was always there underneath the school forms and the laundry, the career pivots, the hormones, the dog needy to pee at 3 a.m. and the crushing administrative burden of being alive. So welcome to the circle. Let's get into it with Jen.

Interview

Julia 6:54

Hello. Hi, how are you? I'm doing really well. I'm so glad that you could join us today. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you.

Jen K. 7:05

Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about where we are in life as so many of us are moving through changes.

Julia 7:12

So this is this is exciting. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm gonna start with you just introducing yourself by saying your name, your age, your pronouns, and what's keeping you up at night. And and since we are, you know, in midlife, if you forget any of the things I just asked you, don't worry, I'll prompt you again.

Jen K. 7:31

Sounds good. My name is Jen Quak. My pronouns are she, her. And uh are we moving into what keeps me up at night? Is that it? Your age.

Julia 7:42

Oh, my age. I'm 43. 43, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And now you can tell us what's keep what's keeping you up at night.

Jen K. 7:49

Yes. I last night I was specifically kept up or woken up by my son and my dog. So my son has been waking up at like 3, 3:30. I've been waking up at 4. Is your son perimenopausal? That's what I'm saying. Like the symptoms are catching. I don't know, but but yeah, so we're we're on like somewhat the same schedule, but not quite. But this was the first time that he actually in a while has like called for me to come because he had it like a nightmare. And then our dog came, and I think she she wants to be where the action is, and uh backup. Exactly. She's like my maternal instincts, and even though I'm spayed, and then she was like, Oh yeah, I have to pee. So I had to take care. Yeah, so so caregiving is keeping me up at night.

Julia 8:38

That's a lot. And I uh, you know, and I I appreciate that like taking the animals out, people don't sometimes understand, like if you don't have dogs, that it it is like um, you know, they don't go in the house. Most of them don't go in the house. And so, like, when they have to go, you have to take them out. So it's like you gotta put on shoes, you have to put on, I don't know, for some people, like in my case, I gotta put on pants because I'm not sleeping in pants or bottoms whatsoever. It doesn't mean I'm winning the the pooying it. I'm not I'm not gonna get into that. That's that's a whole separate thing. I'm gonna digress there. But like, yeah, you have to like put on clothes, put the leash on. It's a whole like thing to like deal with the animals in the middle of the night when they have to go pee. It's not it's not great. It's uh yeah. So that in combination with the kid, that sounds like a lot, but I'm glad you're here anyway after not getting a lot of sleep.

Jen K. 9:20

Thanks. Yeah. Sometimes I feel a little more energy after you know being a bit wired at night.

Julia 9:25

So strange, isn't it? Really strange.

Jen K. 9:29

Yeah.

Julia 9:30

So where are you right now in the liminal space of aging and identity? And just for some context there, you know, it's kind of like what feels like what's what feels like it's ending, what feels like it might be beginning, or I would say like even emerging?

Jen K. 9:49

That's a great question. I I have so many answers, but I guess I'll start with the one of for many years, my identity was centered around being a performer and a writer and a creative, and that has changed a lot between parenthood, you know, moving out of the city, like just yo, COVID, the the actors' strike, then the director's writer's strike. So, so where I am now is the in-between space of being a creative person, but also my level of visibility or my level of putting myself out there, whether it's auditioning or making my own work and releasing it. So all of that has been in progress for a while. And it just always feels like I'm I'm in between.

Julia 10:39

Like you're in between. And how do you feel like it's changed? Like what do you feel has changed the most about all of that? Especially when you're to when you refer to visibility, like what does that look like for you right now?

Jen K. 10:48

Right. That's a huge question. Cause I think, you know, growing up in, or not growing up, but yeah, kind of like coming of age in comedy in the early 2000s, 2010s. It was just rolling out, going to a bar, and being like, here's a song that I wrote this afternoon. And so it was easy to be able to kind of be visible even to those, you know, 10 or 20 people who were there, or doing a huge show that you know would have hundreds of people in the audience and you know, performing for exchange of money. And now being like, How do we perform in the digital age? What does it mean for me to then say, okay, I'm gonna take this gig and also I need to get a babysitter, and also and you know, all the logistics.

Julia 11:30

And also, and also, and also, yeah. It makes me think of how in this day and age, you know, a lot of people are writing books. I feel like in our atmosphere too, you know, whether it's people we sort of know within the community of like performers that we're all kind of affiliated with, or even people who are, you know, I would consider kind of successful, like celebrity type people, they're writing books and they're being told to promote themselves. Like the the sort of atmosphere around all of that has shifted so much onto the like the performer's responsibility. And it sounds the same, like it might be going that way in comedy as well, where it's kind of on you to promote yourself as opposed to the people who used to support you. And it just sounds like a lot.

Jen K. 12:16

Yeah, it's a it's a lot to consider and navigate. And I mean, that's another liminal space that I think I'm in where it's like I have so much creative energy, but then I also have a lot less, like, I don't say like physical energy, whether it's like hormonal things going on or the emotional bandwidth that I have, because I'm like, I'm trying to support this person, this little child who is like trying to understand how to even be in this world, you know?

Julia 12:43

Yeah, it's the caregiver responsibility, and then all of this, you know, added additional responsibility that we didn't have before, or these expectations, and then the cultural existential dread, I think isn't helping anybody either. So that's just this added layer on top of all that that I don't think is um helping. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah. You know, you've built a career turning complicated things like race, anxiety, social awkwardness, justice into songs that are funny and emotionally real. I want to hear more about that and how that's kind of going for you right now.

Jen K. 13:20

Sure. I think for me, I so I'm a Scorpio, I'm a triple water sign. I feel like Fame. Oh my God. Yeah. Yay, but also sorry to both of us. Oh my gosh. So, so it's a lot all the time. And and I think that what I learned over, you know, the past, I want to say like almost 20 years now that I've been a creative and a performer is how to transform and transmute the the really hard stuff or the stuff that you know that that might require a different vehicle than maybe just words. Yeah. You know, things that perhaps travel better or are received better through music or other vibrations. So it took me a long time to even notice. Like, this is the through line of my work because I would write comedic songs and I would also write quote unquote normal songs. I would act in dramas as well as comedies or dramedies. And so for me, it was I think that kind of stepping back from performing and being more publicly out there actually helped me reassess and more fully understand this is this is the the basis of everything that I do. This has to have that emotional depth and authenticity to come from a true place and to have this transformative quality. So there are people out there who will just like honestly like sing their feelings or you know, like metal band where you're like, yeah, that's the rage. And for me, it's like it's about okay, there's rage, there's you know, depression, there's all, you know, despondency, injustice, like all these things. And then how do we transform that into something that feels like we're we're at the heart of it, but we're also able to digest it and take it in.

Julia 15:14

Yeah, I I love what you're saying because I also think that all of these things can coexist, right? Like we can we can speak about the hard things and still laugh about them. You know, we can we can blend a lot of this together, and so much of it is still related anyway. And I think it also has to do with kind of finding your voice. Like a lot of artists talk about finding their voice. And I think as an artist, we're constantly looking for that. And I feel like even when I feel I've arrived, it changes immediately. I mean, I'm going through that right now. I think I've got it. And then I'm like, no, I'm still finding my voice and figuring out what that looks like. And, you know, to your point, you were talking about how you you're blending, you know, comedy, music, acting, storytelling, and all of these different themes are coming through. Do you feel like you've found your voice? Or do you feel like you're still discovering versions of that as you get older?

Jen K. 16:11

It's definitely an evolving process. I so feel what you're saying of like you're still trying to find it. I would say for and I don't I hesitate to like assign numbers to it, but like if I were to, I would say it's 80% there, and sometimes that 80% feels like 100%. But there is then this 20% where it's like, oh, this is the space of growth, you know? Yeah, if it were like a Venn diagram, it maybe shifts between you know, the blobs, the space of the blobs like shift back and forth. Because working multidisciplinary, there are times when everything integrates together. That's honestly very rare, though. So they're and very magical, by the way. Yes, yes, that's right. Like when they people talk about like synergy or alignment and things like that, that oh, for 100% sure that is what it is. And so for me, those moments are not super frequent. For some artists, maybe they are more frequent, but for me, I think that I have been able to find growth and continue that growth and welcome that growth by shifting in back and forth between all those spaces. And so there are times where I would work a lot on my voice, like literally my singing voice, and take voice lessons and do really concentrated work on my voice and developing that technically. And I would become a much better singer than I was, say, a comedian. Then there were times where I would put so much attention on being really funny and really writing and getting out there and trying new stuff that I would become really funny. And so then it would just be this back and forth between building these skills and then integrating them. It would be like, oh, then they come closer together, or I see how they inform each other.

Julia 17:55

Yeah, I agree with you. I feel like those that those magical moments are what we're all chasing kind of all the time. And in the meantime, we're working on these pieces and we're trying to hone these skills individually because we're trying to get really good at several things. And it's it's really difficult to get really good at several things, but that you have like, I think we all, like you described, you know, we'll have these magical moments of integration. And I agree, I think they're rare. I'm not really sure there's anyone out there who has them all the time. If you do, bless and please share how, because I would like to know. I need more of it. And I definitely feel like it's also a cross between the things that we love to do and the things that we have to do. And maybe the things that we have to do aren't things that we hate necessarily, but it is the things that sort of have to happen so that we can continue to do the things that we love to do. So, for example, in my case, I'm I've got my hands in many pots, like I'm I'm writing, I'm podcasting, but I am one person and there's like all of the back end stuff that I have to do, all the administration, the administrative shit that I have to do that no one sees right behind the scenes. And when you're all by yourself, you're doing all the things, you're wearing all the hats. And while I can get those things done, and I even enjoy the completion of those tasks, you know, to an extent, it's not where the magic happens. It's not what I love to do, but it's what I have to do. And I'm satisfied, like when it's finished, but when it all comes together, it's like really, really amazing. So I don't know, when when can we like hire a team of people?

Jen K. 19:22

That's what I knew like being resourced is also a huge part of it. Like, what amount of time do you have? Like, who, what what collaborators can you bring in, you know, to be at your disposal? You know, so like I think about when you were speaking earlier, I was thinking about someone like Prince, where I was like, Prince was like always inhabiting that space of being a stellar musician, having crazy visuals, having access and ability to like come up with these costumes and purchase them and have an entourage and like you know, curate a whole, you know, world. So, so yeah, there's just so many elements to to making it happen.

Julia 20:01

Yeah. They're few and far between, but I feel like you again, it's the you know, resources, whether you're the resource or you have resources or the kind of resources that you have access to. And it's um, it is a challenge I think we're all dealing with. And there is, and it's definitely also a liminal space, right? That that space that you inhabit where you have to wear many hats. And then bringing it on a more personal level level, it's also the the caregiving aspect. So it's who you are in your home and what you have to do in your personal life. And as women, we carry so much of the burden of that house management and that caregiving. So bringing all that together, I just feel like I'm tired a lot.

Jen K. 20:40

It's no joke. I mean, you know, I had this example that I was just thinking of this morning where my son is in Cub Scouts and he had to, we had to fill out this form for they're they're kind of known for the Pinewood Derby. Like this is the main annual event. So you make a little car out of Pinewood, and then there's like a form where you felt like, what's the name of your car? Like, you know, what did you do to contribute to this car making? What categories do you want to be considered for? You know, like like cutest car, funniest car, you know, whatever. And so the form it took us probably let's let's say if you and I were as individuals just making a Pinewood Derby car and filling out the form, which sounds like fun, by the way. It is so much fun, but then right, this is the admin of of getting the car to raise, and and that that would probably take us an adult like two minutes, but then I was like, this is part of the process. My son and I are gonna do this, and it took us like probably 15 minutes, and then we couldn't think of the name of the car, so I was like, let's sleep on it and ask our dreams for any suggestions. Yeah, yeah. The morning we completed the form, and that again took another like 10 minutes, and so you know, it's I was like, this is not nothing. Like there's so many things where it's like we're taught to kind of treat it as, yep, just fill out this form and also do the 70 other things you need to do during the day. And it's like there is a level of switching, task switching, you know, especially if we're creative, to go from that space where I'm sure, you know, when you upload this podcast, you're gonna be like, okay, this is the however many minutes, and this is what, you know, I have to name at the put the description.

Julia 22:18

Even the editing, yeah, all of that. Yeah.

Jen K. 22:20

All of it. And then, and then to also be able to hold space for like, ah, we're in the flow of this.

Julia 22:27

What are the cool questions I want to ask? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, again, back to like what we're chasing, the magic, but like chasing, definitely chasing that flow state all of the time. And as a person with ADHD, you know, oh God, trying to manage my hyper focus and really like put my attention on this, the things that really deserve my attention as opposed to like being like a magpie where I am just drawn to the shiniest object all of the time, you know, bringing that into the process is difficult. And then, you know, again, also like being there for your son, or in my case, you know, being there for my husband or my dogs, or like whatever it is that I'm doing in addition to everything else. And and then, you know, not being shitty in between because I'm tired.

Jen K. 23:11

Yeah, yes. It is so I energy management, energy. Energetic hygiene is something I've been thinking about a lot.

Julia 23:19

I've never heard of that. Say that again.

Jen K. 23:21

Energy hygiene? Yeah. So these are different terms that I've heard. And I wish I could like say exactly, but I'm sure they it came from somewhere else as well. But yeah, energy, I originally heard of energy management a couple years ago. And then probably a several months ago, I heard energetic hygiene. Ooh, I like it. And so it kind of clicked in with me because, you know, the way that, for example, meditation has been described to me is like it's like brushing your teeth, but for your brain, you know. So like our brains might tend to, yeah, especially I'm I have ADHD as well. Neurodivergent folks, you're getting pulled in a million directions. You have these neural pathways that are like, you know, very negative or whatever the situation is. And you're like, when I meditate, like that just kind of clears the slate a little bit, you know? Yeah. Same with like brushing your teeth. You're like, you don't want to like let that plaque accumulate into tar. So it's like, so like right, like mentally, energetically, what are we doing to help keep ourselves a little clearer?

Julia 24:21

Yeah, I really enjoy that because you know, we talk about things like sleep hygiene. And that, you know, is a very obvious thing that it's kind of, you know, very much out there, sort of in the zeitgeist and in the sort of wellness community. Like everybody's talking about sleep hygiene. But I like this idea of that of energy hygiene and maybe even like this idea of resource hygiene in a way, like your own resource, like you as a source of energy and how you're going to manage that and not put it where it doesn't belong, which again is very difficult sometimes to manage, specifically when you're neurodivergent, figuring out where to put that. But yeah, energy hygiene. I'm gonna think more on that. Thank you for bringing that up. I learned something new, and I'm gonna take that one with me today. I like it. I like it. You're a funny person. And a comedian, everybody, check her out. We'll we'll say more about that at the end. We use humor as a coping mechanism. I use it all the time, maybe to a fault. Do you ever find yourself wondering where the line is between laughing at something and actually processing it? Or maybe they're connected.

Jen K. 25:32

Oh, interesting. I I mean it's all all the shades of it, right? Yeah. I do think that there's laughing at, there's laughing with. I think what I admire about like the really good, especially stand-up comedians, is that that they have processed it. And so when they're laughing at something or making fun of something, or you know, however you want to posit that, they have they put layers of thought into it and found a way to like kind of re-coalesce it or reconstitute it so that we can also see it through that perspective, a different perspective than the uh that we might feel about that particular topic. So that is for me the transformative power of comedy. I I think that you know, when I see like punching down, for example, like comedy that is mean, things like that, you can just tell that's just a little raw, you know, like it's it's like if comedy were rocks, you're like, oh, there's just different levels of polishing, there's different levels of sparkle. And so so some of the the anger and just meanness is just like uh unprocessed something, to be honest.

Julia 26:54

Yeah, I mean, and I I would even add, like, when the that punching down, especially when it's like all punching down comedy, so to speak. I I like you're you're being much nicer about it. I call it lazy, like lazy comedy, because it's really easy to to for that to be the default. It's a lot harder to process hard things and find a way for it to be funny. Yeah.

Jen K. 27:14

And so that's what sometimes like this kind of sparked like in my mind, like being back at open mics when I was first starting out and and seeing folks bring things to the stage. Like I saw women bringing like, you know, SA, like really hard things to the stage. And you could tell they were in the process of processing it, but it, but you could see that they were still hurt while singing it. There was still a wildness that they hadn't figured out yet. And then you as an audience, you were also then not just able to fully laugh and be present with them because you were kind of worried. You were like, you were like, I I see and I feel your your pain, you know. And so there's just different levels of polishing when you share. And and there we can go through all of those, you know, in you know, throughout our lives. Like there are times that I'm sure that I made fun of somebody, like made the easiest, you know, like made fun of their hat or something. Yes, yes, you know, but it's like it that this is what makes an artist, and this is what it means to like then turn it into your craft is is how much further are you gonna go in and and really you know polish that stone to be like here is here, maybe not a diamond, but you're like, you know, here's here's just a little gem that I can present to you rather than being like, I'm gonna throw a pebble. Exactly.

Julia 28:33

I and I would even add too, like as an audience member, when you see that, it can be really gratifying, very inspiring, it can give you courage, right? If you see someone up there sharing their story and finding the humor, you know, I think it's that idea of, okay, I maybe I can survive this too, and then maybe I'll find it funny, or I can see their point. This is ironic, or you know, whatever that might be, and I can find that courage too. I mean, I've definitely felt that way watching really good performers, you know. It's I I've had experiences for sure where I've felt my life was changed, you know, in some way by seeing someone be courageous and find humor.

Jen K. 29:08

Hannah Gadsby's work is incredible because right, you're like, and and also the power of their work is that it's like the pain actually is still present, but you can also tell that it's been processed, but they're willing to kind of, I don't know, like take us there with them. It's yeah, so so when it works on levels like that, I think you really can see it, you can feel it energetically.

Julia 29:34

That's exactly who I was thinking about as you were saying that. And I also I I feel like not only have they processed this, but again, with that neurodivergent aspect to it of their personality as well, again, that's also inspiring and bringing kind of all of that together, it just becomes that's like real genius when you see that. Do you know what I mean? You're like, okay, that's really complex shit. That's very complex. It has so many layers. Yeah. And then I have a moment where I'm like, can I can I ever find that? I don't know. Will I ever be that good? I don't do stand-up, doesn't matter. I don't have to worry about that. But yeah, I mean, truly inspiring, and it really makes you think. It makes you think about the complexity. Jen, you've performed for huge audiences, but also created incredibly intimate experiences, like singing for one person at a time. But what kind of connection with people feels most meaningful to you now? Like, what do you prefer? What do you like?

Jen K. 30:32

You know, that's a really good question because I think that that is what I'm starting to like refigure out again. So, kind of like the first step for me was to be like, how can I even allow myself creativity again? Mom guilt is real. There's always laundry, there's always something to do. And so that was a first step of allowing myself. So then I kind of joined different communities, mostly online, of other folks who are in a creative space, you know, spaces with women, with queer folks, with people of color, where it just felt like it's honestly safer. It, you know, I just I just don't have to explain myself as much. I, you know, or we are all generating work together. So there's kind of like a workshop aspect to it. So for me, for the last couple of years at least, that kind of workshop community space has been really important. And I think that having also created and shared work at times where I wasn't ready, or I felt like I get like this is for the paycheck, or this is my day job of being a performer, as one of my friends puts it. So where I felt like it is disconnected, where like the, you know, it's it's not feeling aligned or it's uncomfortable, but I'm kind of pushing through it. So so for me, I think that it really varies. I think it's about feeling that you are received and being perceived by the person in. I used to think that it was that they're receiving you in an accurate way, you know? Yeah. I think that I think that the more that I work on this, it's about them receiving you in a clear way. And so that that kind of has to do with the energetic hygiene. Because times when I've performed and I could see somebody with their arms crossed, or if it was somebody I knew in a part of my life that they had never seen me perform before and they'd be like, Oh, I didn't know you were funny, or you know, like it would be so it's like they're it's like, am I coming in with being like, I want to share this with you, or am I coming in with I gotta finish this gig so that I could get on the plane and you know, cash my check? Or and how are you, the audience member, coming in that you're like, well, this is my coworker or person that I'm a mom with, and I can't believe she's like being sexy now. I can't handle it because of my own shit that I'm projecting, you know? So like it's like we're all coming in and trying to connect, but it's like, what is the lens, you know, that we're we're coming in with and how how does it meet? Like, so so when I feel like people really can receive me, I'm like, oh, okay, this feels great. And then if people, if I feel that judgment, that is that's hard. And so it doesn't really have to do with like necessarily the setting or the number of people or anything like that. It it's it's like that intangible quality of are we both allowing ourselves to show up authentically and like work through this essentially.

Julia 33:39

Yeah, I mean, the the the word that came to mind as you were talking was authenticity. Like, where do I feel, you know, most authentic? And you know, even starting this new venture, I had to give a lot of thought back to energy and hygiene, thinking about where I would feel most authentic, where are my people? Like, where can I find my people? And I think uh for me, a lot of that was why I did this entire kind of rebrand, relaunch was I didn't feel like what I was doing. It didn't feel it didn't feel authentic anymore. It did not, it wasn't lighting me up the way that I wanted it to. And so I had to sit down and really have a conversation with myself about where are my where do I think my people are? How, what can I do that's going to really light me up and feel like the magic? Where can I where I'm chasing the magic? Where can I find the magic? And yeah, where are those people? Like, where can I show up to be my most authentic self and how, right?

Jen K. 34:43

Yes, these are the medium, yes. That's exactly it. Cause I think, you know, like the work that you've done, it's like you also evolve through it, you know? And so once you kind of start to outgrow those containers, you're like, is it time for a different container? Is it time for a bigger container? And so we're always it is that delicate balance where you know, like you see them people who are just so projecting a certain brand, or you know, just some like where it's like, it's like, okay, there's a huge disconnect between who they are and what their container or what their image is. And so we truly have those things all working harmoniously, it's it's a lot of constant work.

Julia 35:26

It really is. Yeah, even I had a client say to me the other day, they were talking about my writing versus like my personality. This is a Pilates client. So I'm in a Pilates situation. I'm I'm up, I'm moving around, I'm dealing with bodies, I'm touching. Where, you know, there's a lot of conversation, I'm part therapist. There's a lot going on in these sessions. I love them and I love my clients. And she was talking about my writing and how, you know, she was like, it's a it's just so different in many ways from the way you are in person. I was like, oh, because I'm funny. I'm like a lot funnier in person. And she was like, Yeah. And I, you know, and I said, well, when it comes to when I'm writing, I'm a lot more contemplative about what I'm addressing. I like to write because I have space to think before I speak. And that's who I am there. And who I am here is a bit different. Sometimes they converge and sometimes they don't. But, you know, back to kind of like finding that outlet, finding your people, you know, trying to figure out where you can siphon, I don't know, where that, where that energy, where you can send that energy, like where it needs to go. Because that's really important too. Otherwise, when you're just festering and sitting with this stuff and you don't know where to put it, that's also really difficult.

Jen K. 36:38

Yes. Yeah. As creative people, as like water sign people, like we have to find like the direction we're gonna flow in, how we're gonna flow, you know, like is it gonna be waves? Is it gonna be a trickle? And then again, like, what is a container? Are we are we gonna be flowing into a creek? Are we gonna be flowing into like a water bottle that then you know can be passed on to someone else? Yeah. So yeah, it's it's a lot of constant questions, and it's very interesting to like find what the answers are because they may not be what you think.

Julia 37:13

In fact, I think they never are. I think they I think often they are not, yeah. Jen, what part of yourself have you had to reclaim as you've gotten older? So thinking about age, like something you were told maybe to tone down or grow out of or leave behind, but didn't I think sensitivity, which for me is to creativity.

Jen K. 37:33

So like sensitivity, intuition, and creativity are so connected. And I think that, and I see, you know, my kid and you know, like the his peers at school, they're you know, being in a public school setting, you know, even though like there's schools who I think now they focus so much more on social emotional learning and things like that that are like incredible. There's so many things in the curriculum that are different than when we were growing up. So different from when we were growing up. Yeah, that was just like basically memorize this thing, you know. And so so I see how that was really taken out of me, where it was like, you need to remove all the sensitivity, like your intelligence, essentially, of whether it's emotional intelligence, energetic intelligence, you know, all of that stuff, and just shut it down and be like, I am going to learn about these atoms or whatever. So that having to kind of loosen my grip on that part of my brain to then rediscover and re-allow intuition and sensitivity to come in because also then we were also taught that it was bad. Like, yeah, you know, we were made fun of. It was like, well, she's being sensitive. And so I spent many years suppressing that, like on purpose. Like, you know, I was trained to do it and I was like, here, let's go, let's do it. And then, you know, my instincts and impulses creatively, then I was like, Oh, this is a place where this is this is fuel for that. This is necessary for that. And so to truly allow those things to kind of come back into my life, you know, I think it's connected to inner child work, which love and return to again and again, because it's like that we all I think are who we are the moment that we're born, you know. Like I think about like reflecting on what my kid was like as a baby, as a two-year-old. There is at four-year-old six, there's a consistency. And then looking back at my life, I'm like, there is a consistency. Like, there's this trend online of like, what is it? It was like, it was like find the picture that like you know shows like who you like who you that this represented you the best, or like when you were a kid. Yeah, like like when you were a kid, like this showed like this showed like who you were gonna become already, who you were, who you are. And so I think we're just so taught to like get rid of that. And so you see these, you know, pictures of people like being fabulous or being sassy, but then right, in their everyday, they're like buttoned up or you know, whatever the opposite of that is.

Julia 40:15

That's so interesting. I don't know if you've heard of this thing called human design. Have you heard about this? Yes, yeah. I I just literally learned about this yesterday. I was listening to the Woo-woo podcast with Rachel Dratch, which is like one of my favorite podcasts lately. But so they had someone, like an expert on there, talking about it the other day. And I I like at first it was a little like, ah, I don't know, it's like a little too woo-woo for me. But the more they talked about it, I was like, oh, yes, yes. And there's I invite everyone out there listening to check this out. It's really fascinating. But I feel you're you're touching like on a lot of this this idea that you are who you are, like when you come out of the womb. And there are certain fixed things that stick with us as we continue to evolve and age over time. And it's like that from a philosophical standpoint, we call it the unchanging observer, like the who you are outside of the stupid meat sack, like that thing, that being, whatever that is, that energy, it is always the same. You are who you are until the day that you die. Are there aspects that will continue to involve and change? But it's it's those things that make you you at your core that are kind of always the same. And so I love this idea of finding that photo, like who, like what photo represents who you really should be? I mean, I think of like for myself, I think of a photo of me as a brownie. I think of me in my like get in shape girl outfit, which I know this is a little bit before your time, but I had the this whole like get in shape girl set. And it was like, I think, oh my God, it might have been okay, definitely like the wristband, you know, like sweat wristband stuff. Yeah, and then like the headband, and then I think there were like little weights or something. And there's like a picture of me like doing my thing, and I would do like the Jane Fonda videos with my mom. And I didn't think I was gonna work in like wellness and fitness. It was never on my radar, never on my radar. But finding a way later to sort of combine the the performative aspect of my personality, the person who likes to be in front of people and perform and do a thing, and kind of find this intersection of all of that has been really fascinating. And it's like the happiest I've ever been because I've come to realize I don't want to memorize a script. My memory is really bad. I I don't even think I could. Like, I don't know how people do it anymore. I can hardly remember what I had for breakfast, but to like sit down and memorize an entire script and then like do a play. No, thank you. I'm not interested. I don't think I could do it. Some people can do it. I don't, I honestly don't know that I could anymore either. I don't either. So I but what I can do is I can show up to my group class and I can teach four hours of uh group Pilates and I can perform and I can crack jokes and I can be the center of attention, so to speak, and like have a great time, but also like provide the service. So there's like this service aspect to it that I love. And I'm like helping people and I'm I'm like, you know, seeing people transform through this practice and all of that converging. I think maybe I was always that person.

Jen K. 43:17

Yes, yes, because like as a kid, like you gravitate toward this thing that you're like, oh, it's so cute, and it's about like the but then it's like the essence of it, you know, it like unlocked something in you. I think we have these sort of breadcrumbs always through our entire lives. And yeah, similar for me, where it was just like, it's like, oh, I am the class clown whenever I'm in, I went to school for business, but I was like, I was like, this business management project, when it's time to present, I'm like, let's go, baby. Welcome to my this is before TED Talks even existed, but I was just like, welcome to the Jen show. Yeah, like little things like that, where it's like, okay, I forced myself to study this thing, but my real talent and my real interest and aptitude is actually this other thing that's like uh being allowed to happen. Yeah.

Julia 44:07

And I would add, you know, when we when we figure that out and when we allow those things to happen, that's when I think we find that flow. That's where the magic happens, is when you finally figure out that I was forcing this stuff all along, and that's why it always felt icky and it was really, really hard. Um, yeah. And when you kind of figure that out, it look, it's all hard. We're all doing hard stuff all the time. And what you do for a living is not easy, but I'm gonna guess you enjoy it more even when it's hard than when you were in business school.

Jen K. 44:40

That's exactly it. Yes, yes. Yeah.

Julia 44:43

Yeah. Jen, we have approached the end of this podcast. And at this point, this is where I'm gonna ask you uh for a spooky story. Keeping in mind, everyone tells a spooky story on the show. And it doesn't have to be like jump scare kind of haunting. It can be anything from like high strange to a very intuitive moment that kind of changed your life, or maybe something really minor. I don't know. But I am very curious to hear what you've prepared

Spooky Story

Julia 45:08

for us today.

Jen K. 45:10

Well, I think that this is before like manifest. Became a thing. But I've always had things come to me and it it would come like when I had like a thought or a spark or an idea, sometimes I would speak it, sometimes you know, it would again just be like a concept in my mind. But one thing that has happened a couple times is manifesting instruments, like attracting instruments to me. So when I was in my early 20s working in nonprofit, I worked for Jazz at Lincoln Center, and I was a total like I am here to help run the education programs, and like that's it. And then I started because I was in New York, I was like, I've always wanted to do improv. Like I started kind of getting like one foot into you know, just like expressing. Yes. And so, but with zero ambition, though. Like I was not trying to like make a career of it. And at one point I was like, I was like, oh, what if I like you know just start playing music again? And again, this is in you know, living in a fourth floor walk-up. There's no really, you know, I'm I'm a pianist, so I grew up with like a like an upright piano in college. I played like Model D, Steinways, you know, and so I was like, there's no way real pianos, people, real pianos. Yeah, like a piece of furniture, like a car. And so I was like, there's no way that I can this can happen for me. At one point, my roommate was like, was like, somebody's throwing out a keyboard. Like, do you want this keyboard? And like rescues the keyboard. And I still have the keyboard to this day. My son was playing it this morning at like while he was getting ready for school. Then, like, not too long after that, I I started getting, and granted, this is the time that ukuleles were starting to become popular, like like Zoe De Chanel was like starting to become popular.

Julia 47:09

Okay, okay, yeah. I feel the vibe. I know this time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jen K. 47:13

Like right before. And so, so I was like, I was like, oh, you know what? If you know, I can't really get like a huge instrument. You know, I had this keyboard, which I was like, you know, it's fine. But I was like, I was like, there's something that I feel like I want something acoustic. And so, so I was like, maybe I'll get a ukulele. So then I mentioned this to one of my coworkers. She was friends with this children's performer, and she was like, he has his own line of ukulele. And so I look it up and I was like, ooh, I love this aesthetic. I'm gonna like, you know, save up and like buy this ukulele. At literally that same time, my boyfriend, now husband, purchased a ukulele on Amazon, and then my roommate, same roommate who got who got me the keyboard, was in London, and she came back, and this is on MySpace period. I was MySpace, like, look at my new ukulele. And she was like, She when she came back, she was like, Jen, did you get a ukulele? And I was like, why does she look so mad? And she was like, I also got you a ukulele, and I was gonna wait to give it to your birthday, but I'm just gonna give it to you now because you already have- so I went from zero ukulele's to three ukulele.

Julia 48:22

Three ukulele's zero to three ukulele's, yeah.

Jen K. 48:25

Yes, and then the third time that this happened was I was just starting, I had stopped doing music for a long time, and I was just starting to do music again. And I just remember being like, I'm putting out into the universe, I'm starting to do music again. Literally that week, out of no kind of out of nowhere, I got an email being like, Do you want to audition to be the band leader for this new show on MTV? And I was like, What the fuck? I was like, I thought that I was just gonna like attract somebody to come to my house and be like, let's sing some harmonies. But it was essentially like a job offer/slash audition from someone that I had worked with before that was like, your skill set is what we need. Please come let us know if you're interested in being the band leader for this show. And so I so I go to this audition and they're like, Hey, I auditioned with the keyboard that my roommate had given me from the trash 10 years ago. Yes, and then they were like, Do you have a guitar or can you get a keitar? A guitar! Because we have this okay, hold on.

Julia 49:32

So I need you to tell people what a key tar is just in case, just in case people don't know what one is.

Jen K. 49:38

So it's a keyboard that is electronic and it's shaped like a guitar, and you hold it against your body and you play it. So there's like you know, just many different musicians who sometimes play. Like Lady Gaga sometimes plays it. We have the same one, but in different colors, she has custom ones, and so basically I was like, I sure I will obtain a guitar. A guitar. And I went on Craigslist, I got one from this guy on Staten Island, but then the one that he had was vintage, so you needed to have like vintage, you know, like the hookup had to be like a particular, yeah, gotcha. Like an audio interface, you had to have like a certain MIDI connection, like you have to like you have it's custom. I was so I was like, I don't know if this is gonna work, but like this is the only thing I could find. Then I went to Guitar Center and was like, Can I get this guitar? And this is the one that that Lady Gaga has that is it's a Roland, it's white. I'm sure many people have seen it. And so they were like, we can get it for you, but we have to get it in from Kansas, and so like it's gonna come basically like the day that I was gonna start shooting, and I was like, all right, this is gonna be tight as hell, but okay, like order that from Kansas and then cross my fingers and my feet. So, like, you know, this is this is a whole day of trying to get a kitar. Then I go back to my home and I'm like, this is such a long story, but it's it's worth it.

Julia 51:02

I love it, I love it.

Jen K. 51:04

So then I'm I'm having like a yoga party for my friends. One of my friends teaches yoga. We did it in my backyard in Queens, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna get ready for the yoga party. I'm gonna go buy some hummus. So I go to my corner store to buy hummus. I come around, I something catches my eye out of the corner of the pawn shop. It's a kitar! It's a keitar. It's the one that I was gonna order. So, like the the main color they have is white. Like John Batiste also, I think, plays this exact one. And so it was a black one, which was a limited edition, which I had no idea at the time. But I just look in the window, I was like, oh my cat, God, keytar. Like, and it was half off because it was in a pawn shop.

Julia 51:44

Pawn shop, yeah.

Jen K. 51:45

So I I literally see my friends start to arrive. Oh, there's a ladybug on my microphone. Aww, good luck, thank you. So I see my friends start to arrive, and I'm literally waving them like, go to my house, go to my house. I'm buying a kitar. Hold on, I'll be right there. I'm coming with my hummus in my kitar. And so that that is the the trifecta of my my instruments that have magically appeared, arrived.

Julia 52:13

Just more to the point of everything, like this is I feel like we've come full circle, like a callback to the beginning, right? It's that idea of just you found three instruments without really doing much. They came to you, right? And a kitar is weird. I'm sorry, but you don't just find a keitar anywhere. Uh, those of you, I hope you will seek them out. If you don't know what they are, please go look at what they are. But they're a very strange instrument. You don't see them everywhere, and it's a bizarre ask, right? For MTV to be like, hey, do you have a keytar? So if that's not a sign that this was like the thing that was supposed to happen, then I don't know what is. Yeah, yeah.

Jen K. 52:48

It's I'm very grateful for these like kind of breadcrumbs from the universe. And again, from birth, you know, we have these little things that are just telling you, like, you know, here you go. This is what you're meant to

Bibliomancy

Jen K. 53:01

be doing.

Julia 53:02

Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. All right, Jen. Thank you for that. Thank you for that story. We have one last thing to do here, and this is where I do my little bibliomancy, my oracle reading for you. So the way that this works is kind of like a tarot card reading, except you do it with a book. And I'm going to ask you to hold a question in your mind for this. But before we do that, you're going to choose which book you want me to do this reading from. And I have one that is ornithography, which is basically bird stuff. And then I have floriography, which is basically flower stuff. So you tell me which one you would like me to use. I like the flowers. Let's do flowers. Let's do flowers. Okay. So, right now, you're gonna think of a question. And, you know, I always tell people like we're gonna talk about it after, so don't make it too personal and serious because uh we're gonna share it with everybody. So whatever it is, you know, hold that in your mind. And as you hold it in your mind, I will choose a page from the book and then we'll read and discuss. So do you have your question?

SpeakPipe 54:10

Yes. Okay, I'm gonna choose.

Julia 54:20

And by the way, most of these flowers and birds are names that I have difficulty pronouncing and will say wrong. So, those of you out there, if I say them wrong, don't come for me. I'm doing my best. All right, this is called a protea, a protea, I'm assuming, or a prote, a prote or a protea. It's a very pretty flower. So either prote or protea, someone tell me. And the meaning of this flower is transformation. Wow. Okay. Now, the origin of this flower, it was named for Proteus. So that's telling, right? The son of the Greek god Poseidon. Like Proteus, who could change shape whenever he wanted, Protea is an extraordinarily diverse plant genus able to take many different forms. It pairs with a laurel to congratulate a friend on their life-altering achievement, and Lily of the Valley as a gift for someone recovering from an illness. What was your question?

Jen K. 55:18

My question was how do I, we, it was kind of like overall, yeah, not not for me, you know, personally, but like how how do we hold the mundane and the magical on a daily basis? I mean, that's telling. Yeah. Transformation. And so, and I have to say, I am a fan of, I think it is Protea. So, like whenever I go to Trader Joe's, like I'll always buy a Protea because they just look like they're from another world. Yeah, it's an interesting looking flower. Yes, and they're they're fuzzy. Like every time that I put it in, not every time, but like like often I'll put it in my car, and either like the the checkout person or like another customer will be like, What is that? Or like, where'd you get that? And I'm like, it's right there. It's the and they're like, I never considered this like weird fluffy flower that looks like it's from another planet or realm.

Julia 56:10

Well, I will have to post pictures of that on Instagram because I've I don't think I've probably seen one and never recognized it. And the illustration, you know, I'm sure is doing it some justice, but not full justice. So I'm gonna have to check out this flower. But yeah, I mean, who doesn't want to hear that transformation is the answer? I feel like that's that's a good one. And especially with, yeah, and with everything going on in the world right now. Like we do need we need some real transformation at this moment, I think, in general. But yes. The magical, what did you say? The magical and the the mundane, and the mundane. The magical and the mundane. Yeah.

Jen K. 56:43

Because I think that like the protea, like the flower, like it, there is something magical about it. You're like, oh, this looks so different from like any other flower. And so I wonder if the mundane part is just like, but it's just a flower. It's just a flower.

Julia 56:56

Yeah.

Jen K. 56:57

Like it's it's not like it's actually from another realm, but it evokes that, you know?

Julia 57:02

Yeah. I would even add too that, oh God, back to what I was talking about earlier. The sort of back-end tasks of everything that I do is very mundane, but in order for the magic to happen, like that's all the necessary stuff that has to be done, right? So it's the mundane with the magical, yeah.

Jen K. 57:22

That really is it. Yeah, yeah. Because that's what flowers do. They take those nutrients and they're like, and what do we turn it into? We could turn it into this fuzzy, weird-looking flower that you've never seen before, that it doesn't look related to anybody else. Yeah. You can get a Trader Joe's, apparently, which I did not know. Now they're looking for it. Yeah. It's not all the time, but yeah, whenever I see it, I'm like, I'm getting it.

Julia 57:44

When do you get that? Jen, this was awesome. Thank you so much for doing this show. It was so good to see you. Tell people what you're doing, what you're working on, and how they can find you.

Jen K. 57:55

Sure. Yeah. I am just working on my own music, you know, writing stuff, sharing stuff, and also working in collaboration with some friends on a show called One Red Sequin, which is an immersive musical theater show about the red ruby slippers and the theft. If you've not heard of that, please Google that. You will go into a very satisfying wormhole. And you can find me mostly on Instagram at Genquak, Genquak. So it's my name twice, and Genquok.com.

Julia 58:27

Super. Thank you so much for sharing that. And listeners, I will put all of that in the show notes. Do check her out, especially on Instagram. She's she likes to sing on Instagram. I enjoy it. She shows up, she sings. You can see a lot of that. And uh, yeah, definitely check her out. Jen, thank you so much for coming. This was great. Thank you. Agecraft after dark is written, produced, and edited by me, Julia Brunaki. The music Bernard Bernard Brunette by Ivy Virus. Have a question or a spooky story? I want to hear it. Leave me a message at speakpipe.com forward slash agecraft. And you might just hear yourself on the show. For more agecraft content, join me on Substack at agecraft.substack.com. If you'd like to work with me and learn more about all of the things, head to julia G Wellness.com. Thanks for listening. Remember, visibility is activism. And until next time, stay curious, stay a little haunted, and I'll see you in the dark.